Marc Andreessen on Edward Snowden, acts of treason, mass surveillance and Silicon Valley

26 Comments

Credit: All Things D

While freedom-of-information advocates and critics of the U.S. government’s policies on mass surveillance were busy celebrating the 1st anniversary of Edward Snowden’s massive NSA leaks, venture capitalist and former Netscape founder Marc Andreessen was pushing a somewhat different message. In his view, Snowden is a traitor whose acts — along with the resulting confusion they have created about what the NSA is doing — have endangered U.S. foreign relations and U.S. companies, and therefore he shouldn’t be celebrated as a hero.

Andreessen made some of his remarks in a video interview with Andrew Ross Sorkin for the CNBC show Squawk Box (which is embedded below), and then followed up later with a discussion on Twitter, which I have edited into a Storify module and also embedded below. In the video, which is also embedded below, Andreessen says Snowden is clearly a traitor for leaking the NSA documents to then-Guardian blogger Glenn Greenwald and his partner, filmmaker Laura Poitras:

Obviously he’s a traitor — if you look up in the encyclopedia ‘traitor,’ there’s a picture of Edward Snowden. He’s like a textbook traitor, they don’t get much more traitor than that… Why? Because he stole national security secrets and gave them to everyone on the planet.

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It’s not clear whether Andreessen is right about the open-and-shut nature of Snowden’s case, however: as a number of legal experts pointed out during the Twitter discussion, treason typically requires that the accused gives aid or military secrets directly to the enemy, whereas Snowden gave his information to the media (this issue of “aiding the enemy” and whether it includes the media came up in the trial of Chelsea Manning for leaking documents to WikiLeaks).

Andreessen also says in the video that he found the shock with which most people greeted the NSA revelations to be surprising, since spying is what the organization was designed to do from the very beginning:

If you actually followed the NSA, if you actually read the books and the articles and understood the history of the NSA, I think you’d generally assume that they were doing pretty much everything that has come out… I thought they were spying, I mean that was my impression… I thought everyone knew that.

Following the interview (which Gawker Media suggested was designed primarily to bolster the value of the giant technology companies that Andreessen either invests in and/or partners with), the Netscape founder was questioned on a number of points by veteran technology journalist Dan Gillmor, as well as Tow Center fellow Alexander Howard and a number of others, including me. Gillmor began by asking whether Andreessen was more upset that U.S. companies were hacked, or that this was revealed to the world by the Snowden documents.

In the discussion that followed, Andreessen argued that the understanding of what the NSA does was warped by the initial reporting on the Snowden slides, which suggested that companies were voluntarily providing carte-blanche access to their servers. Subsequent reports have said that companies like Google and Facebook only provide the information that is required under government orders, although the exact process by which this occurs remains somewhat murky.

Andreessen also argued that much of what Snowden did involved the surveillance of non-U.S. citizens, and that in his view this is exactly what the NSA is supposed to be doing, and therefore not the kind of illegal or even immoral behavior that would justify a whistleblower like Snowden revealing the information in the way he did:

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Not everyone agrees, however: Howard, for example, noted that mass surveillance of any kind raises free-speech and human rights issues, and others noted that the behavior of the U.S. government was of interest to its people regardless of who exactly was being spied on. Jillian York of the Electronic Frontier Foundation called Andreessen’s views “abhorrent,” while Greenwald argued that by the same reasoning, disclosures about torture at the Abu Ghraib prison shouldn’t qualify as whistleblowing because the victims involved weren’t U.S. citizens.

Andreessen said that the issues raised by the NSA’s behavior were complicated — since recording the phone calls or other activity of foreign agents often involves capturing the behavior of American citizens as well — and that collecting and storing “metadata” about online behavior was also not a black-and-white question. The Netscape founder also pointed out that his company, the first browser maker, was a vocal advocate of strong encryption.

In the end, as one user pointed out, the question of whether Snowden is a traitor or a hero — that is, whether his leaking of the NSA documents was justified because of the behavior it revealed on the part of the government — is largely a side issue: ultimately, the important question is whether snooping en masse on U.S. citizens is wrong, and if so what should be done about it. And that question has yet to be answered, by either Marc Andreessen or anyone else.

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Post and thumbnail images courtesy of Flickr user Petteri Sulonen

Post and thumbnail images courtesy of All Things D

26 Comments

Dean

It is sometimes difficult to know if it is ignorance or cowardice that govern some of these “see no evil” views.
“What innocent American citizen was harmed by NSA doing their job…?” The entire country has been put in danger. Laws were set up by our Founding Fathers as well as checks and balances because history has shown that power corrupts. When our leaders break those laws that we have entrusted them to uphold, and engage in systematic lying to hide their actions and intentions, then the evidence of impending danger is only imperceptible to the willingly blind, or the uninformed.
Cognitive dissonance? Would you recognize the evil of these actions if it was any other government behaving this way? I promise you I am a good guy. I would not harm you. So i am going to spy on you and your family, Marc. You too, Dave. I will listen in on your private conversations with your wife and children. I will install malware on your computers. Why not? No harm will come to you. Do not talk to me about laws. You obviously do not care about these.
Other world leaders are not going to submit to this “harmless” behavior, breaking international laws and common ethics and trust. Economic backlash is coming. New relationships are being formed behind closed doors at this very moment that we are still unaware of. Historical friends are rethinking their relationships with us.
The argument that they would do it too is only worthy of a five year old’. The fact is we are the ones who are setting up the largest spy apparatus in the history of the world. Unparallelled by any other fascist government ever. We are the bad players.
Terrorism is the excuse, but not the reason. We are monitoring private cell phone conversations of world leaders between their family members. We are spying on and creating the technology to listen in to cell phones of entire nations. We are compiling metadata on hundreds of millions of citizens that have nothing to do with terrorism. And this is only a bit of the full truth of what is really occurring. You can not call this an Orwellian conspiracy when we know that it is really happening.
With a little knowledge of history, and a little wisdom or common sense, you should be able to connect the dots and know that this abuse of technology and power is leading to some dark days. I was innocent enough to never believe I would see my government behave in this manner. But I refuse to be blind and be in denial.

Mr. Grey

As far as I’m concerned Snowden might be a traitor to the US government but not to me. Snowden was willing to tell me what my “own” government was not. That they were routinely spying on me in a variety of ways, intentionally concealing the fact from me, and my duly elected representatives, and intend to continue doing so whether legal or not.

If the head of the NSA and Snowden showed up at my house on a stormy night I’d welcome Snowden in, feed, clothe and hide him. The NSA dude, driven by a misguided sense of self rightousness that blinds him to the obvious could stand there in the rain.

Jon Shafer

It’s clear, Andreesson, you have no respect for the Constitution. Further, the Declaration of Independence states:

“”When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

Notice the words, IT IS THEIR DUTY.

And that’s exactly what Edward Snowden did, what Pvt. Manning did, what Wikileaks did….expose the utter corruption running our government. The “national security” bullshit so many claim isn’t to protect us, it’s to protect the liars and deceivers and the evil that makes our “foreign policy” a disgrace before the world.

The Patriot Act violates our Constitution. NDAA and indefinite detention without rule of law and due process violates our Constitution. The political fools who enacted this, and who support the illegal spying and foreign regime change based on lies, and wars based on lies are ALL in violation of their oaths to “preserve, protect and defend” the Constitution. The national security police state is un-American.

So, Mr. Adreesson, when you support this twisted logic, that makes YOU and all others like you, involved in treason against the Constitution and the democratic ideals psychopathic fools like you have stolen from the American people.

WildBill

Marc is basically a loser in life and business and while he made a great contribution to the birth of the WWW, he took Netscape from nearly 100% market share to nothing so I don’t think his judgment is all that sound.

Snowden actually very much meets the definition of a hero, he gave up everything for something he deeply cared about, American freedom, and knew our freedom was at risk with these out of control NSA programs. He actually gave up the very thing he was fighting for so we could all enjoy it a little longer.

His actions have proved more than justified by the Presidents and Congresses actions after the disclosure. What the government was and still is doing threatened our way of life and was heading to giving the terrorists another win but damaging our way of life.

I for one am not willing to give up privacy for security and give the terrorists that win, the NSA programs were growing unchecked, Snowden’s actions have at least slowed these programs and Congress just shut one of them down and the FISA court has teeth again.

Marc is dead wrong about it being treason, if fact I would say not doing anything would be closer to treason, as all government officials owe their first and highest allegiance to the Constitution and not the government institution they work for.

As for the releases not related to Americans directly, I would argue that any and all of the acts disclosed could have just as easily been turned on Americans and with the administration initially lying about and the main stream media refusing to cover it at the start warranted more releases to keep the story alive.

They have done irreparable to companies like Cisco, RSA, and many others, our company is now forced to build out data centers in Europe and move quality jobs there because more and more financial institutions are insisting their data not leave their shores and reside in America where the government no longer respects privacy.

On top of that the NSA continues to fail on so many levels, Crimea just being the latest, perhaps if they were not spying on my pizza order they might have noticed 40,000 Russian troops amassing on the border…

Michael West

I am slow to call Mr. Snowden a traitor, but there is no doubt that he is not a whistleblower and is a criminal.

Mr. Snowden was fully protected by the Federal Whistleblower Law, and yet he chose extra-judicial means to accomplish his objectives, whatever they were. This removes him from the rubric of Whistleblower Status.

I am a great respecter of the principle of Civil Disobedience, as advocated by Thoreau, Gandhi and MLK, but Civil Disobedience entails committing your defiance of what you perceive to be an unjust governmental policy in the full light of day and submitting yourself to lawful authority, in order to test the lawfulness and righteousness of your actions.

Mr. Snowden committed his act under cover of darkness, and ran off to foreign countries to evade prosecution.

That makes him a criminal in my book. Traitor? I don’t know. But common criminal, certainly.

But that is only my opinion. Others of course are free to disagree. It is still a free country. But even in a free country, there are laws. Folks need to work to change them, obey them or be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Again, IMHO

Michael West

If only there were a Federal Whistleblower Law in place at the time Mr. Snowden committed his crimes, he would never have had to steal hundreds of thousands of classified documents and run off to some foreign land like a thief in the night. Oh wait a minute, there was. Never mind.

Thomas Greed

“There are no fascists in America, merely “Comment Moderators”—Hunter S. Anton, Author of the Novel Johnny Dirtbag “Movie Star”

Michael West

“Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one.” A.J. Liebling “Your mama **%#$!.” Average, unmoderated Yahoo commenter.

Thomas Greed

“I’m sorry, America can’t exercise free speech. now…it’s awaiting comment “Moderation”—Hunter S. Anton, Author of the Novel Johnny Dirtbag “Movie Star”

Thomas Greed

“A traitor is someone who does not really believe in the Bill of Rights, Comstitution, etc.”—Hunter S. Anton, Author of the Novel Johnny Dirtbag “Movie Star”

Thomas Greed

“Some hotshot publicist for a political startup (USA) once opined,”A NON-Vigilant Press guards against the TYRANNY of Freedom, the pointless and petty PURSUIT of Happiness, and the utter and relentless NUISANCE of an INFORMED CITIZENRY.”,,,,,,,We hold these LIES sacrosanct, in a sacred DEITY-ENCRYTED TRUST of Self-Evidence.”—Hunter S. Anton, Author of the Novel Johnny Dirtbag “Movie Star”
“Andreesen won’t answer “Springloaded” questions; he probaby won’t care for “Jack Springload”, the character in the novel Johnny Dirtbag “Movie Star”…WHAT A WHIMP!”—The New York Times

James GordonGekko Gillmore

Marc’s my hero. And this is disappointing–because I doubt he believes this. He’s lying to sound in line with all the politicians. He knows he has to sound like them so they don’t all instantly become enemies of Silicon Valley. Perhaps he’s making the right decision. But I would have liked to see him take a stand.

M

Nice to hear someone in the tech industry actually talking some sense about this issue for a change. Of course the NSA was designed to collect information on foreign threats to the US. The nature of collecting this information requires mass collection for later analysis, even if “later” is near real time. Snowden’s fault was not trying to start a discussion about the appropriate limits of surveillance and its possible effects on individual rights. It was his taking a data dump of every possible detail he could sweep up and handing that over to press for publication. Trusting that reporters and news outlets would behave responsibly, or even that if they did they could adequately protect information they decided not to publish, was at best astonishingly naïve. In fact, it was knowingly criminal, as Snowden himself has demonstrated by his actions in fleeing prosecution. He could have initiated the discussion he wanted by merely speaking publicly about the nature of the excesses he felt were there, and not performing a personal data dump of millions of pages classified information.

Jason McKenzie

Color me shocked. I almost soiled myself in laughter when I read his comment about “cognitive dissonance”. The problem is, the sociopathic soft fascists running this country into the ground like Andreesen don’t have cognitive dissonance because they don’t value humanity in general, only their tribe of fascist oligarchics.

Dave

What innocent American citizen was harmed by NSA doing their job of monitoring for threats so that something could be done prior to mass bombing or other? Snowden has changed the focus from known enemies to an imagined one (NSA) and in the process handicapped NATO countries from preemptively protecting their citizens. His revelations have harmed American businesses and created general friction and backlash. The US government, which includes the NSA, is of the people by the people for the people. The citizens are the ones who lose out with this misplaced Orwellian conspiracy world mindset. Post Snowden I feel more vulnerable. If I were a terrorist, I would feel more at ease.

Ric

Your delusion may be the most complete I have ever seen Dave! When any organization for the people starts disrespecting and negating the rights of the people is when it becomes the enemy of the people,

period.

The US government are the baddies Dave and have been for a long time not only does the hubris of the government astound me, but the hubris of idiots like Andreessen who are in bed with them is twice as insulting. I dont buy into this totalitarian Oligarchy, but if you want to give away liberty for security, then as once was reflected:

YOU deserve NEITHER!

Michael West

Upper caps always make me shiver in my boots, especially when it is coming from folks who are quick to tell other folks what they do or not deserve. In today’s enlightened world, we can enjoy both liberty and security. This false dichotomy meme has been making its way around the Internet for so long nobody even notices it anymore – it is like a noxious smell that the mind turns off seven minutes after it wafts in the room. “Life in a state of (anarchy) is nasty brutish and short” (Hobbes) – with emphasis on the nasty and brutish part. Upper caps omitted for the sake of civility.

JenniferDawn

I agree with Dave here completely. Everything you say here is true. There are plenty of idiots that scream about their precious ‘liberty’, even though this has been going on for years now, and you never were denied your ‘liberty’.

Let’s just see if they change their tune when the Al-Qaeda EMP truck bomb takes out Silicon Valley – probably not though.

igor2

And Andreessen is competent to comment on Snowden why, again?

Jason McKenzie

Oh he’s very intellectually competent, but he has no moral credibility.

Eddie

Of course Andreessen has taken this view. He’s on the Board of Facebook, which is one of the world’s largest commercial surveillance machines which steals privacy from its users whenever it gets the opportunity to do so, like the very recent transgression where “Facebook has been forced to defend a ‘creepy’ new feature that allows it to activate your smartphone’s microphone and listen in.”

swo8

I don’t think Snowden is a traitor. He just confirmed what we all suspected was going on anyway. The other countries are doing it to us and we are doing it right back. Corporate espionage is a big part of business.
Leslie

mthiele10

Marc, I accept and understand your concern about our intelligence leaks and with the knee jerk reaction and desire to call Snowden a traitor. Just like you I’m concerned over the “immediate” situation and it’s impact on US Business and Government. However, no change is without pain, and the more buried the disease the harder it is to deliver the medicine. I believe that in the future Snowden will be considered a hero, as opposed to a Benedict Arnold. Someone needed to be the escape valve. It’s also true that much of the information Snowden released is only bad “because we now know about it”. Punishing him for that is like punishing a 5 year old for being spoiled and belligerent. It’s the parents (Government) that should be punished. After all, if the government hadn’t been illegally spying on US citizens, this trouble would likely never have occurred.

Tom Foremski

Hubris is a terrible affliction. It never stays silent.

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