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	<title>Comments on: LIVE: The Bloom Energy Unveiling Event!</title>
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		<title>By: VIDEO: Gen. Colin Powell on Bloom Energy &#38; Working for Kleiner Perkins</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31205</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VIDEO: Gen. Colin Powell on Bloom Energy &#38; Working for Kleiner Perkins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] the launch event of fuel cell company Bloom Energy last week General Colin Powell, who is on the board of directors for Bloom Energy and a limited partner for [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the launch event of fuel cell company Bloom Energy last week General Colin Powell, who is on the board of directors for Bloom Energy and a limited partner for [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis D</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31204</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dennis D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Very interesting posts.  I consult for Wall St on emerging technologies (Ultracaps, flywheels, Lithium/Nickel/Fe batteries/fuel cells, solar/wind, etc.  I was involved in one of the first fuel cell projects for data center critical power some 15 years back or so.  Not much has changed.  Fuel cells fail at 2-3X the advertised rate due to aggressive chemical action unavoidable in the technology, they never make any economic sense (no possibility of payback without government intervention), cannot be used standalone unless you want constant outages, have maintenance costs no one ever speaks to, and like solar make no sense on a grand scale.  Nuclear makes clearly excellent sense for macro power - greener than fuel cells or any technology, guaranteed payback, no outage issues, easy maintenance, even with spent fuel disposal (concrete casing &amp; deep dump is cheap &amp; totally effective.)  CBS should put aside their liberal bent and do a real piece on that.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting posts.  I consult for Wall St on emerging technologies (Ultracaps, flywheels, Lithium/Nickel/Fe batteries/fuel cells, solar/wind, etc.  I was involved in one of the first fuel cell projects for data center critical power some 15 years back or so.  Not much has changed.  Fuel cells fail at 2-3X the advertised rate due to aggressive chemical action unavoidable in the technology, they never make any economic sense (no possibility of payback without government intervention), cannot be used standalone unless you want constant outages, have maintenance costs no one ever speaks to, and like solar make no sense on a grand scale.  Nuclear makes clearly excellent sense for macro power &#8211; greener than fuel cells or any technology, guaranteed payback, no outage issues, easy maintenance, even with spent fuel disposal (concrete casing &amp; deep dump is cheap &amp; totally effective.)  CBS should put aside their liberal bent and do a real piece on that.</p>
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		<title>By: A Short Course in Bloom &#171; Bloom Daily</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A Short Course in Bloom &#171; Bloom Daily]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] Media event live blog (almost as good as a [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Media event live blog (almost as good as a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A Short Course in Bloom &#171; Bloom Daily</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31202</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A Short Course in Bloom &#171; Bloom Daily]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31202</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] text and graphics: •    Bloom Energy site •    Greentech Media event live blog (almost as good as a transcript) •    Greentech Media compares Bloom Energy to Google •   [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] text and graphics: •    Bloom Energy site •    Greentech Media event live blog (almost as good as a transcript) •    Greentech Media compares Bloom Energy to Google •   [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Why Bloom Energy Is &#38; Isn&#8217;t the Google of Greentech</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31201</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Why Bloom Energy Is &#38; Isn&#8217;t the Google of Greentech]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] the slick, several-hour production that was the Bloom Energy launch event, which included a machine gun of celebrity endorsements (Gen. Colin Powell, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the slick, several-hour production that was the Bloom Energy launch event, which included a machine gun of celebrity endorsements (Gen. Colin Powell, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Balance Energy Quietly Building A Web of Microgrids</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31200</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Balance Energy Quietly Building A Web of Microgrids]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31200</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] companies Balance Energy is working with, he declined to say. (On that note fuel cell maker Bloom Energy launched yesterday and has been selling its fuel cells, which operate on natural gas and methane, to companies in [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] companies Balance Energy is working with, he declined to say. (On that note fuel cell maker Bloom Energy launched yesterday and has been selling its fuel cells, which operate on natural gas and methane, to companies in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: les madras</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31199</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[les madras]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Perhaps the &quot;purchase price&quot; is set high but comes with &quot;cash-back.&quot;  Since the Calif subsidy is 20% off the purchase price, this would lead to better ROI.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the &#8220;purchase price&#8221; is set high but comes with &#8220;cash-back.&#8221;  Since the Calif subsidy is 20% off the purchase price, this would lead to better ROI.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31198</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31198</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the info Bilsko, also we have to factor in the cost of the fuel for the Bloom plant, it needs natural gas and that isn&#039;t free.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Frankly I don&#039;t understand what the hype is all about.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the info Bilsko, also we have to factor in the cost of the fuel for the Bloom plant, it needs natural gas and that isn&#8217;t free.</p>
<p>Frankly I don&#8217;t understand what the hype is all about.</p>
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		<title>By: Bilsko</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31197</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bilsko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 01:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31197</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Mark
Good question&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For solar PV panels you can use $5,000-$6,000/kW for installed costs as a rule of thumb. Really big central plants may be able to bring those costs down a bit, but as a general rule, you&#039;re safe with those numbers.
For Wind... you&#039;re looking at $2,000-$2,500/kW installed.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Those figures are just for generation.  If you&#039;re talking about central plants then you have to add in transmission and distribution costs to the mix (which is what Bill and I are going back and forth on in the other comments)&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark<br />
Good question</p>
<p>For solar PV panels you can use $5,000-$6,000/kW for installed costs as a rule of thumb. Really big central plants may be able to bring those costs down a bit, but as a general rule, you&#8217;re safe with those numbers.<br />
For Wind&#8230; you&#8217;re looking at $2,000-$2,500/kW installed.</p>
<p>Those figures are just for generation.  If you&#8217;re talking about central plants then you have to add in transmission and distribution costs to the mix (which is what Bill and I are going back and forth on in the other comments)</p>
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		<title>By: Bilsko</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31196</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bilsko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 01:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31196</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Bill - I&#039;ll grant you the $1500/kW for a new CC gas plant; assuming there&#039;s no CO2 sequestration - which is going to be harder and harder to site as Carbon emissions controls take shape in the next few years.  But sure...a big enough CC Gas plant will probably come online for around $1,500 (actually the latest issue of Gas Turbine World is sitting on my desk at the office...have to admit I haven&#039;t thumbed through it yet!)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But $500/kW for T&amp;D upgrades?  I have to push back and say there&#039;s absolutely no way.  Take a look at the projected costs for T&amp;D upgrades ( http://goo.gl/WiCj - PDF at the bottom of the page) from the Brattle Group.  They&#039;re talking about $2200/kW for transmission and $4400/kW for distribution.  Even cutting those numbers in half its still way above the $500 figure! Maybe it comes down to geography too (Midwest vs our insanely overcrowded East Coast grids where we&#039;re in ISO Congestion Charges up to our ears!)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m not trying to argue that the Fuel Cell from Bloom is cheap ($8,000/kW...who are they kidding, really?) but I will put my chips with other forms of DG (recip engines for smaller applications, turbines for 5MW and up) over big central power any day.
But since this post is about fuel cells, I will say that there are scenarios where fuel cells become economically viable options.  The incentives in Connecticut, paired with the 30% ITC grant will essentially buy a fuel cell down to the same price as a nice recip from, say, Jenbacher.  Add in the MACRS accelerated depreciation and make sure you&#039;ve got a nice high capacity factor and offtake for thermal (ie. winter heating &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; absorption chilling) and you can come up with a pretty decent IRR and debt-coverage ratios.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill &#8211; I&#8217;ll grant you the $1500/kW for a new CC gas plant; assuming there&#8217;s no CO2 sequestration &#8211; which is going to be harder and harder to site as Carbon emissions controls take shape in the next few years.  But sure&#8230;a big enough CC Gas plant will probably come online for around $1,500 (actually the latest issue of Gas Turbine World is sitting on my desk at the office&#8230;have to admit I haven&#8217;t thumbed through it yet!)</p>
<p>But $500/kW for T&amp;D upgrades?  I have to push back and say there&#8217;s absolutely no way.  Take a look at the projected costs for T&amp;D upgrades ( <a href="http://goo.gl/WiCj" rel="nofollow">http://goo.gl/WiCj</a> &#8211; PDF at the bottom of the page) from the Brattle Group.  They&#8217;re talking about $2200/kW for transmission and $4400/kW for distribution.  Even cutting those numbers in half its still way above the $500 figure! Maybe it comes down to geography too (Midwest vs our insanely overcrowded East Coast grids where we&#8217;re in ISO Congestion Charges up to our ears!)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not trying to argue that the Fuel Cell from Bloom is cheap ($8,000/kW&#8230;who are they kidding, really?) but I will put my chips with other forms of DG (recip engines for smaller applications, turbines for 5MW and up) over big central power any day.<br />
But since this post is about fuel cells, I will say that there are scenarios where fuel cells become economically viable options.  The incentives in Connecticut, paired with the 30% ITC grant will essentially buy a fuel cell down to the same price as a nice recip from, say, Jenbacher.  Add in the MACRS accelerated depreciation and make sure you&#8217;ve got a nice high capacity factor and offtake for thermal (ie. winter heating <em>and</em> absorption chilling) and you can come up with a pretty decent IRR and debt-coverage ratios.</p>
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		<title>By: Bloom Energy By the Numbers</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31195</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bloom Energy By the Numbers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31195</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] Payback: Bloom Energy founder KR Sridhar says that the payback on investment for their customers is 3 to 5 years in energy cost savings. Sridhar confirmed to me that the 3 to 5 year claimed payback is with the California and federal subsidy, and Sridhar refused to comment on what the payback would be without the subsidy. Since the subsidy is half the cost of the device, I think its safe to say that a payback not in California would be at least double that. The Oil Drum puts the ROI at 15 years. (Some of our commenters put it at more). [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Payback: Bloom Energy founder KR Sridhar says that the payback on investment for their customers is 3 to 5 years in energy cost savings. Sridhar confirmed to me that the 3 to 5 year claimed payback is with the California and federal subsidy, and Sridhar refused to comment on what the payback would be without the subsidy. Since the subsidy is half the cost of the device, I think its safe to say that a payback not in California would be at least double that. The Oil Drum puts the ROI at 15 years. (Some of our commenters put it at more). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: VIDEO: NEA&#8217;s Scott Sandell on How Bloom Energy will Cut Costs</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31194</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VIDEO: NEA&#8217;s Scott Sandell on How Bloom Energy will Cut Costs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31194</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] the Bloom Energy official unveiling this morning I brought our handy dandy Flip video camera to try to catch a couple interviews and Bloom Box [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Bloom Energy official unveiling this morning I brought our handy dandy Flip video camera to try to catch a couple interviews and Bloom Box [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31193</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Can someone provide a wind/solar power comparison as it seems to be very expensive in comparison (i know it provides energy on demand, but perhaps a new battery system would work out better for solar).&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can someone provide a wind/solar power comparison as it seems to be very expensive in comparison (i know it provides energy on demand, but perhaps a new battery system would work out better for solar).</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31192</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;I don&#039;t want to come off like I&#039;m anti-Bloom or anti fuel cell, because I&#039;m not.  For very rough estimation, I would say that a combined cycle gas plant is about $1,500/kw.  Transmission and distribution upgrades are about $500/kw.  And, if I brought a $2,000/kw combined cycle project to my board, they would push me out of the room because I was 20% too high.  Granted I live in the midwest where I could be low, but I don&#039;t think I could be that far off.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s too bad, because I am a big fan of distributed power.  We don&#039;t need more power lines around.  We just need fuel cells that are closer to $1000/kw installed cost rather than $10,000/kw.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to come off like I&#8217;m anti-Bloom or anti fuel cell, because I&#8217;m not.  For very rough estimation, I would say that a combined cycle gas plant is about $1,500/kw.  Transmission and distribution upgrades are about $500/kw.  And, if I brought a $2,000/kw combined cycle project to my board, they would push me out of the room because I was 20% too high.  Granted I live in the midwest where I could be low, but I don&#8217;t think I could be that far off.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s too bad, because I am a big fan of distributed power.  We don&#8217;t need more power lines around.  We just need fuel cells that are closer to $1000/kw installed cost rather than $10,000/kw.</p>
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		<title>By: Bilsko</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31191</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bilsko]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Katie - thanks for the followup.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As for customers only wanting electric output....uhh, OK...I don&#039;t know that I&#039;d let that dictate the design of this kind of product, but alright. It just seems like an awful lot of wasted heat that could be put to good use.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As for the second point, that the heat is used in the process - you&#039;re right (or rather, they&#039;re accurate in saying that)  Fuel Cells do use some of their own heat output in the reformer - heat&#039;s needed to get useable H2 from the natural gas (CH4) so any fuel cell that uses a reformer will divert some of the heat output to that task - companies like UTC and FCE list all of their heat outputs as heat available net any used for the reformer.  It could very well be that they&#039;re diverting nearly all of the useable heat to the reformer to bump up the H2 output from the natural gas and therfore improve the Electric efficiency...I don&#039;t know.
One good thing about SOFCs is that they can take both H2 and CO as fuel sources - unlike other types which cant work with CO. I&#039;d be curious to know if they have any plans to get Bloom&#039;s model working with CO as an input fuel.
One disadvantage that is characteristic of the SOFCs is that because they operate at such high temperatures, the materials used (especially sealants and metal components) are subject to considerably more wear-and-tear...meaning less time between major maintenance and, presumably, stack replacements. Not sure how Bloom is dealing with that (lower materials costs, perhaps?)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One other thing that I forgot to add to my original comment was an observation on the emissions profile. Its a mixed bag for the Bloom unit. While they do better with CO2 emissions (about .35 tons/MWh compared with .50-.55 tons for the UTC and FCE units) it&#039;s not any better on NOx emissions.  NOx emissions can be dealt with through SCR, but that costs more money (like $100-$150/kW more).&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katie &#8211; thanks for the followup.</p>
<p>As for customers only wanting electric output&#8230;.uhh, OK&#8230;I don&#8217;t know that I&#8217;d let that dictate the design of this kind of product, but alright. It just seems like an awful lot of wasted heat that could be put to good use.</p>
<p>As for the second point, that the heat is used in the process &#8211; you&#8217;re right (or rather, they&#8217;re accurate in saying that)  Fuel Cells do use some of their own heat output in the reformer &#8211; heat&#8217;s needed to get useable H2 from the natural gas (CH4) so any fuel cell that uses a reformer will divert some of the heat output to that task &#8211; companies like UTC and FCE list all of their heat outputs as heat available net any used for the reformer.  It could very well be that they&#8217;re diverting nearly all of the useable heat to the reformer to bump up the H2 output from the natural gas and therfore improve the Electric efficiency&#8230;I don&#8217;t know.<br />
One good thing about SOFCs is that they can take both H2 and CO as fuel sources &#8211; unlike other types which cant work with CO. I&#8217;d be curious to know if they have any plans to get Bloom&#8217;s model working with CO as an input fuel.<br />
One disadvantage that is characteristic of the SOFCs is that because they operate at such high temperatures, the materials used (especially sealants and metal components) are subject to considerably more wear-and-tear&#8230;meaning less time between major maintenance and, presumably, stack replacements. Not sure how Bloom is dealing with that (lower materials costs, perhaps?)</p>
<p>One other thing that I forgot to add to my original comment was an observation on the emissions profile. Its a mixed bag for the Bloom unit. While they do better with CO2 emissions (about .35 tons/MWh compared with .50-.55 tons for the UTC and FCE units) it&#8217;s not any better on NOx emissions.  NOx emissions can be dealt with through SCR, but that costs more money (like $100-$150/kW more).</p>
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		<title>By: Katie Fehrenbacher</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/cleantech/live-the-bloom-energy-unveiling-event/#comment-31190</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Katie Fehrenbacher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://earth2tech.com/?p=52078#comment-31190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;@Bilsko, In the Q&amp;A session after the media event, a reporter asked KR specifically if there would be thermal output for the boxes and he said his customers had expressed that they wanted straight electricity. He also said the heat generated is used in the process, but didnt elaborate.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bilsko, In the Q&amp;A session after the media event, a reporter asked KR specifically if there would be thermal output for the boxes and he said his customers had expressed that they wanted straight electricity. He also said the heat generated is used in the process, but didnt elaborate.</p>
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