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	<title>Comments on: Who is right on internet valuations? Public markets or VCs?</title>
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	<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/</link>
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		<title>By: Mary Jesse</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-890137</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mary Jesse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 01:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-890137</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A. Does right mean good investment and wrong mean poor investment?  B. Or does right equal a &quot;fair&quot; value which implies a stable, sustainable business model?  If A, unless the returns for the VCs and the public investors are compared over time, there is no way to truly know.  If B, again only time will tell if the risks can be mitigated and these companies can continue their growth.  Still I agree that even then, both sets of  valuations are too high because they are driven in part by emotion and hype - there is no ROI for emotion and hype, unless you sell quickly to the next guy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A. Does right mean good investment and wrong mean poor investment?  B. Or does right equal a &#8220;fair&#8221; value which implies a stable, sustainable business model?  If A, unless the returns for the VCs and the public investors are compared over time, there is no way to truly know.  If B, again only time will tell if the risks can be mitigated and these companies can continue their growth.  Still I agree that even then, both sets of  valuations are too high because they are driven in part by emotion and hype &#8211; there is no ROI for emotion and hype, unless you sell quickly to the next guy.</p>
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		<title>By: cas127</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-889910</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cas127]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2012 23:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-889910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Om,

First, let me congratulate you on an excellent site and a very strong stable of writers.

As to private vs. public market valuations, I think one point hasn&#039;t been mentioned yet - the manipulation of what I&#039;ll call &quot;apparent market cap&quot; by VCs.

In my mind, reported &quot;market cap&quot; really translates into &quot;market crap&quot;.

Even in the public markets, market cap can be extremely misleading because it suggests that a given company is worth, in toto, the total number of shares outstanding times the last share price paid - *regardless* of the *size* of that share purchase.

But it is one thing to find a buyer(s) for 100 shares - it quite another to find buyer(s) for 100 million.

But the dominant media image (carefully cultivated by market insiders, be they Sand Hill VC or Wall Street) is that &quot;market cap&quot; is somehow real/inviolate and utterly indicative of real economy significance (ignoring revenue, net income, etc.).

This makes the system *much* easier to game by the insiders, since they can create news events/price spikes through the choreographed purchase of a small number of shares.

At least in the public markets, there is *some* push-back  against insider hype due to short sellers (although they are constrained in ways that the &quot;upside artists&quot; are not).

But in the *private markets* that VCs inhabit/manipulate, there is a very, very, very carefully choreographed stair-step pattern of upward value manipulation through successive rounds - all in anticipation of the big IPO blow-off to retail bag-holders - the retail investors.

Of course, the attempted price manipulation by VCs doesn&#039;t always work - it often doesn&#039;t, that is why down-rounds can be a death-knell.

But in *hot* startups, successive rounds are very carefully choreographed, even, especially, as to the point of absurdly spiking market cap (which draws the media attention needed for the blow-off to retail) through comparatively small purchases of shares (percentage-wise).

Again, it is one thing to say Facebook is worth $100 billion because .01% sold for $10 million (higher than the normal VC kabuki actually) and quite another to try and round up enough dumb money (retail investors and brain-dead institutions) to sell 25% (still nowhere near an actual 100%) for $25 *billion*.

The former is stage-managed manipulation (and 99% of VC kabuki takes place at much lower numbers than Facebook) while the latter is nation-straddling market hyping.  Their relative probability of success differs tremendously.

The private exchanges were initially embraced by VCs because they *aided* the VC hype process by publicizing essentially illusory market cap numbers (lets call them &quot;market crap numbers&quot;).  

Go back and look at the puny volumes traded on those private exchanges - then compare those numbers to what Facebook tried to sell at IPO - then gird your loins to look at the shares coming (post multiple lockups and full dilution).

So Facebook was worth $100 bazillion because some largely hidden buyer on ShadowMarket.com paid $X for .0000000000000000001% of the company?

Really?

Yes, the private secondary markets have painted VCs into a corner *but* it is a monster of their own manipulative creation.

Look for a return to old school intra-VC stair-stepping rounds - where the market manipulation can be tidier and infinitely more hidden.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Om,</p>
<p>First, let me congratulate you on an excellent site and a very strong stable of writers.</p>
<p>As to private vs. public market valuations, I think one point hasn&#8217;t been mentioned yet &#8211; the manipulation of what I&#8217;ll call &#8220;apparent market cap&#8221; by VCs.</p>
<p>In my mind, reported &#8220;market cap&#8221; really translates into &#8220;market crap&#8221;.</p>
<p>Even in the public markets, market cap can be extremely misleading because it suggests that a given company is worth, in toto, the total number of shares outstanding times the last share price paid &#8211; *regardless* of the *size* of that share purchase.</p>
<p>But it is one thing to find a buyer(s) for 100 shares &#8211; it quite another to find buyer(s) for 100 million.</p>
<p>But the dominant media image (carefully cultivated by market insiders, be they Sand Hill VC or Wall Street) is that &#8220;market cap&#8221; is somehow real/inviolate and utterly indicative of real economy significance (ignoring revenue, net income, etc.).</p>
<p>This makes the system *much* easier to game by the insiders, since they can create news events/price spikes through the choreographed purchase of a small number of shares.</p>
<p>At least in the public markets, there is *some* push-back  against insider hype due to short sellers (although they are constrained in ways that the &#8220;upside artists&#8221; are not).</p>
<p>But in the *private markets* that VCs inhabit/manipulate, there is a very, very, very carefully choreographed stair-step pattern of upward value manipulation through successive rounds &#8211; all in anticipation of the big IPO blow-off to retail bag-holders &#8211; the retail investors.</p>
<p>Of course, the attempted price manipulation by VCs doesn&#8217;t always work &#8211; it often doesn&#8217;t, that is why down-rounds can be a death-knell.</p>
<p>But in *hot* startups, successive rounds are very carefully choreographed, even, especially, as to the point of absurdly spiking market cap (which draws the media attention needed for the blow-off to retail) through comparatively small purchases of shares (percentage-wise).</p>
<p>Again, it is one thing to say Facebook is worth $100 billion because .01% sold for $10 million (higher than the normal VC kabuki actually) and quite another to try and round up enough dumb money (retail investors and brain-dead institutions) to sell 25% (still nowhere near an actual 100%) for $25 *billion*.</p>
<p>The former is stage-managed manipulation (and 99% of VC kabuki takes place at much lower numbers than Facebook) while the latter is nation-straddling market hyping.  Their relative probability of success differs tremendously.</p>
<p>The private exchanges were initially embraced by VCs because they *aided* the VC hype process by publicizing essentially illusory market cap numbers (lets call them &#8220;market crap numbers&#8221;).  </p>
<p>Go back and look at the puny volumes traded on those private exchanges &#8211; then compare those numbers to what Facebook tried to sell at IPO &#8211; then gird your loins to look at the shares coming (post multiple lockups and full dilution).</p>
<p>So Facebook was worth $100 bazillion because some largely hidden buyer on ShadowMarket.com paid $X for .0000000000000000001% of the company?</p>
<p>Really?</p>
<p>Yes, the private secondary markets have painted VCs into a corner *but* it is a monster of their own manipulative creation.</p>
<p>Look for a return to old school intra-VC stair-stepping rounds &#8211; where the market manipulation can be tidier and infinitely more hidden.</p>
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		<title>By: Roham Gharegozlou</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-870625</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roham Gharegozlou]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 04:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-870625</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[People who say the public markets are efficient make me laugh. The sheer volatility (billions, sometimes trillions, of dollars gained and lost in a matter of hours) should prove that public markets are affected just as much (if not more) on imperfect signal, herd mentality, hype (both positive and negative), and excess liquidity. I see your point, Om, and it&#039;s a great one backed up by research, but the situation is gray not black nor white.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who say the public markets are efficient make me laugh. The sheer volatility (billions, sometimes trillions, of dollars gained and lost in a matter of hours) should prove that public markets are affected just as much (if not more) on imperfect signal, herd mentality, hype (both positive and negative), and excess liquidity. I see your point, Om, and it&#8217;s a great one backed up by research, but the situation is gray not black nor white.</p>
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		<title>By: mahen</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-870336</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mahen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-870336</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is one more time we are debating valuations of internet companies. It&#039;s hard not to get dejavu feeling. Valuation here is a function of imagination. Imagination of potential. In long run we can&#039;t buy companies on these imaginary no.s and profitability has to be delivered to sustain the valuations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is one more time we are debating valuations of internet companies. It&#8217;s hard not to get dejavu feeling. Valuation here is a function of imagination. Imagination of potential. In long run we can&#8217;t buy companies on these imaginary no.s and profitability has to be delivered to sustain the valuations.</p>
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		<title>By: Moi</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-869323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 09:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-869323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Come on. Fair value = what was actually paid; not what we think. 
Stocks go up and down. Tech companies are more volatile because of the intangible nature of the business. Plus young companies need tons of growth capital. Growth is expensive.
Let&#039;s allow these companies to breathe and see what happens.
Linked In tanked shortly after its IPO (if I remember correctly). Now it&#039;s booming.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Come on. Fair value = what was actually paid; not what we think.<br />
Stocks go up and down. Tech companies are more volatile because of the intangible nature of the business. Plus young companies need tons of growth capital. Growth is expensive.<br />
Let&#8217;s allow these companies to breathe and see what happens.<br />
Linked In tanked shortly after its IPO (if I remember correctly). Now it&#8217;s booming.</p>
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		<title>By: Om Malik</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-869017</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Om Malik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-869017</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael

where is the link that takes us beyond the paywall. Can you share?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael</p>
<p>where is the link that takes us beyond the paywall. Can you share?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-869015</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-869015</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[VC Experts has some excellent data on the preferred prices paid by investors, as well as the price of the common stock issued, for thousands of venture backed companies. Check it out https://vcexperts.com/vce/valuation-analysis]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VC Experts has some excellent data on the preferred prices paid by investors, as well as the price of the common stock issued, for thousands of venture backed companies. Check it out <a href="https://vcexperts.com/vce/valuation-analysis" rel="nofollow">https://vcexperts.com/vce/valuation-analysis</a></p>
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		<title>By: Semil Shah</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-868953</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Semil Shah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-868953</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This analysis omits one possible motivation that likely impacts the whole -- the ability to dump shares on secondary markets before IPO. Yes, many VCs do hold positions to and after IPO, but some do hedge positions with these alternative markets, and if so, that provides them an incentive to see the price go above FMV. -@semil]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This analysis omits one possible motivation that likely impacts the whole &#8212; the ability to dump shares on secondary markets before IPO. Yes, many VCs do hold positions to and after IPO, but some do hedge positions with these alternative markets, and if so, that provides them an incentive to see the price go above FMV. -@semil</p>
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		<title>By: Om Malik</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-868927</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Om Malik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-868927</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Big difference in traders and investors - I think these big names are being shunned by large mutual funds and other big investors who do a lot of due diligence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big difference in traders and investors &#8211; I think these big names are being shunned by large mutual funds and other big investors who do a lot of due diligence.</p>
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		<title>By: Om Malik</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/who-is-right-on-internet-valuations-public-markets-or-vcs/#comment-868926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Om Malik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=546687#comment-868926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Healy 

I agree to some extent but most of it is also over-the-top valuations offered by the clueless is now coming back to roost. Basically the private markets never really want to deal with the reality: a company eventually has to grow into its valuation and has to become a business. It is what is happening right now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Healy </p>
<p>I agree to some extent but most of it is also over-the-top valuations offered by the clueless is now coming back to roost. Basically the private markets never really want to deal with the reality: a company eventually has to grow into its valuation and has to become a business. It is what is happening right now.</p>
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