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	<title>Comments on: Will Google or Cisco Determine Our Future Broadband Networks?</title>
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	<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/</link>
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		<title>By: johnbbartell</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223267</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnbbartell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 17:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We should be careful about adding any intelligence to the network.  The reason the Internet has scaled so well over the last decade is largely because it requires so little intelligence in the network.  The more the network is aware of what is going through it, the more &quot;state&quot; must be maintained and coordinated within the network.  ATM was at one time (yes it is true) a contender to build a worldwide network like the Internet, but one of its major problems was that state had to be maintained for every connection through a switch.  The least expensive IP router can have millions of connections through it because the router has no idea what IP connections are going through it, and only the endpoints maintain state information (at a higher layer of the protocol stack, e.g., TCP).

Let&#039;s not change what has worked so well.  The Internet should provide a ubiquitous basic transport of datagrams.  The endpoints of the networks, the computers, should use this basic IP transport to provide the applications that consumers are looking for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should be careful about adding any intelligence to the network.  The reason the Internet has scaled so well over the last decade is largely because it requires so little intelligence in the network.  The more the network is aware of what is going through it, the more &#8220;state&#8221; must be maintained and coordinated within the network.  ATM was at one time (yes it is true) a contender to build a worldwide network like the Internet, but one of its major problems was that state had to be maintained for every connection through a switch.  The least expensive IP router can have millions of connections through it because the router has no idea what IP connections are going through it, and only the endpoints maintain state information (at a higher layer of the protocol stack, e.g., TCP).</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s not change what has worked so well.  The Internet should provide a ubiquitous basic transport of datagrams.  The endpoints of the networks, the computers, should use this basic IP transport to provide the applications that consumers are looking for.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223266</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 08:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223266</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Broadband plan needs to clear on the outcomes it wishes to achieve.

National goals on reducing volumes of journeys, increasing home working,  more care delivered at home will deliver one particular design,  possibly an open and transparent data transport layer capable of deivering multiple assured services.

If the goals to deliver high definition TV to all,  while leaving legacy voice services as they are,  then the engineers will design something different.

The Internet principles have served the world well and this points to retaining an open and transparent approach to networking.  This demands the emergent operation properties (throughput, loss and delay at busy periods) are explained to users and uses get to use the throughput and distribute the available quality as they wish.  Thus neutrality is a property and part of the design.

This is not inconsistent with someone then building a virtual network on top to deliver IPTV,  but the change in properties need to be explained and if there are centralised controls,  then these need exposing to the user.

The Broadband planners have a key decision on what outcomes they are planning to meet.  Is IPTV a critical service?  If not,  it should be made clear,  the sooner the better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Broadband plan needs to clear on the outcomes it wishes to achieve.</p>
<p>National goals on reducing volumes of journeys, increasing home working,  more care delivered at home will deliver one particular design,  possibly an open and transparent data transport layer capable of deivering multiple assured services.</p>
<p>If the goals to deliver high definition TV to all,  while leaving legacy voice services as they are,  then the engineers will design something different.</p>
<p>The Internet principles have served the world well and this points to retaining an open and transparent approach to networking.  This demands the emergent operation properties (throughput, loss and delay at busy periods) are explained to users and uses get to use the throughput and distribute the available quality as they wish.  Thus neutrality is a property and part of the design.</p>
<p>This is not inconsistent with someone then building a virtual network on top to deliver IPTV,  but the change in properties need to be explained and if there are centralised controls,  then these need exposing to the user.</p>
<p>The Broadband planners have a key decision on what outcomes they are planning to meet.  Is IPTV a critical service?  If not,  it should be made clear,  the sooner the better.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Kopelman</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223265</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesse Kopelman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 21:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Virtual networks allow you to build multiple networks, each optimized for a different application, and run them over the same infrastructure.&quot;

I completely agree. The issue is that too many carriers want to build a network one way and sell it as something completely different. My concept of Network Neutrality is not so much about forcing carriers to build/operate their networks a certain way, but to force them to be open and honest about how they build/operate them. The excuse that this would somehow compromise their ability to compete is laughable given the tiny number of competitors, the fact that employees constantly hop between competitors and their vendors, and that most ideas about network build/operation come from the vendors and not the carriers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Virtual networks allow you to build multiple networks, each optimized for a different application, and run them over the same infrastructure.&#8221;</p>
<p>I completely agree. The issue is that too many carriers want to build a network one way and sell it as something completely different. My concept of Network Neutrality is not so much about forcing carriers to build/operate their networks a certain way, but to force them to be open and honest about how they build/operate them. The excuse that this would somehow compromise their ability to compete is laughable given the tiny number of competitors, the fact that employees constantly hop between competitors and their vendors, and that most ideas about network build/operation come from the vendors and not the carriers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Kopelman</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223264</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesse Kopelman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 21:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223264</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my mind the issue is not whether a private network should have management and QOS (it should). The issue is whether service providers should be able to sell such a service as &quot;Internet Access&quot;, with no public information on what QOS levels are, what management methods are in practice, and what preferential deals they have in place with other private network operators. If you want to sell me a managed connection, provide me with an SLA. If you are serious about all this packet-inspection and application optimization, no more hiding behind the idea of &quot;best effort service&quot;. I have dealt with carriers plenty, and they claim their networks are either managed or unmanaged depending solely on which answer best serves their immediate interest. It&#039;s all about management when they don&#039;t want to support your application and it&#039;s all about Network Neutrality when you ask for an SLA with committed QOS levels.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my mind the issue is not whether a private network should have management and QOS (it should). The issue is whether service providers should be able to sell such a service as &#8220;Internet Access&#8221;, with no public information on what QOS levels are, what management methods are in practice, and what preferential deals they have in place with other private network operators. If you want to sell me a managed connection, provide me with an SLA. If you are serious about all this packet-inspection and application optimization, no more hiding behind the idea of &#8220;best effort service&#8221;. I have dealt with carriers plenty, and they claim their networks are either managed or unmanaged depending solely on which answer best serves their immediate interest. It&#8217;s all about management when they don&#8217;t want to support your application and it&#8217;s all about Network Neutrality when you ask for an SLA with committed QOS levels.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Bennett</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223263</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Bennett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 21:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223263</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stacy, all wireless protocol standards with any weight have QoS capabilities, including Wi-Fi, Wi-Max, UWB, and all the cellular standards. There&#039;s no debate among real wireless engineers that such things are necessary.

Instead of worrying about making carriers be &quot;neutral,&quot; a meaningless state of affairs that will only hurt application developers, worry about making them deliver the service they promise.

Neutrality is an effort to engage in network engineering by people who don&#039;t know enough to even begin the task. Leave engineering to the engineers, and let regulators worry about money and service.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stacy, all wireless protocol standards with any weight have QoS capabilities, including Wi-Fi, Wi-Max, UWB, and all the cellular standards. There&#8217;s no debate among real wireless engineers that such things are necessary.</p>
<p>Instead of worrying about making carriers be &#8220;neutral,&#8221; a meaningless state of affairs that will only hurt application developers, worry about making them deliver the service they promise.</p>
<p>Neutrality is an effort to engage in network engineering by people who don&#8217;t know enough to even begin the task. Leave engineering to the engineers, and let regulators worry about money and service.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Kopelman</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223262</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesse Kopelman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 21:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223262</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course it makes sens to optimize for applications -- for both business and engineering reasons. My concern is from a consumer perspective -- that the goal of the optimization is not better service per se, but more profitable service. The reason I support Network Neutrality is, because, without it regulation becomes infeasible. I actually think a more elegant solution is to mandate structural separation between wholesale (network operations) and retail, but it&#039;s been about 10 years since anyone broached that as a serious option . . .

By the way, Wireless Bandwidth is just as unlimited as wired, it&#039;s just a question of cell density. You want higher peak throughput, you reduce the distance between base-station and user. You want higher average throughput, you reduce the number of users per cell. Both of these are obtained through the same method, reducing cell size (aka building more cell sites). Obviously there is a very real cost to building more cell sites (both capital and operational), but there are also very real costs (both capital and operational) to adding ever more sophisticated gear to perform intelligent and adaptive network management. I&#039;ve yet to see any evidence that one method is more cost effective than another. I doubt anyone has even ever undertaken a serious study of such.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it makes sens to optimize for applications &#8212; for both business and engineering reasons. My concern is from a consumer perspective &#8212; that the goal of the optimization is not better service per se, but more profitable service. The reason I support Network Neutrality is, because, without it regulation becomes infeasible. I actually think a more elegant solution is to mandate structural separation between wholesale (network operations) and retail, but it&#8217;s been about 10 years since anyone broached that as a serious option . . .</p>
<p>By the way, Wireless Bandwidth is just as unlimited as wired, it&#8217;s just a question of cell density. You want higher peak throughput, you reduce the distance between base-station and user. You want higher average throughput, you reduce the number of users per cell. Both of these are obtained through the same method, reducing cell size (aka building more cell sites). Obviously there is a very real cost to building more cell sites (both capital and operational), but there are also very real costs (both capital and operational) to adding ever more sophisticated gear to perform intelligent and adaptive network management. I&#8217;ve yet to see any evidence that one method is more cost effective than another. I doubt anyone has even ever undertaken a serious study of such.</p>
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		<title>By: The internet at forty &#124; Innovation Toronto</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223261</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The internet at forty &#124; Innovation Toronto]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223261</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Will Google or Cisco Determine Our Future Broadband Networks? (gigaom.com) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Will Google or Cisco Determine Our Future Broadband Networks? (gigaom.com) [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Your daily dose of social media required reading @ Technology News</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223260</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Your daily dose of social media required reading @ Technology News]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223260</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Will Google or Cisco determine our future broadband networks? &gt;&gt; GigaOM [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Will Google or Cisco determine our future broadband networks? &gt;&gt; GigaOM [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: rusli zainal sang visioner</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223259</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rusli zainal sang visioner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How about Nokia and Siemens?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about Nokia and Siemens?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Richard Bennett</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2009/09/03/will-google-or-cisco-determine-our-future-broadband-networks/#comment-223258</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Bennett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 05:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=67653#comment-223258</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Back in the old days, when chips were severely limited, we had to make trade-offs between network speed and network management; networks could be dumb and fast, or they could be smart and slow. We don&#039;t need to make that choice any more, because they can now be  both smart and fast. People who demand a fat, dumb pipe are living in the past.

Virtual networks allow you to build multiple networks, each optimized for a different application, and run them over the same infrastructure. That&#039;s the future of networking. Internet is a fine network for stored content, but it sucks for anything real-time. You can thank Jacobson&#039;s Algorithm and BGP for that.

See the ITIF written comments for illumination: http://www.itif.org/files/20090903_The%20Future_of_the_Internet_FCC.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in the old days, when chips were severely limited, we had to make trade-offs between network speed and network management; networks could be dumb and fast, or they could be smart and slow. We don&#8217;t need to make that choice any more, because they can now be  both smart and fast. People who demand a fat, dumb pipe are living in the past.</p>
<p>Virtual networks allow you to build multiple networks, each optimized for a different application, and run them over the same infrastructure. That&#8217;s the future of networking. Internet is a fine network for stored content, but it sucks for anything real-time. You can thank Jacobson&#8217;s Algorithm and BGP for that.</p>
<p>See the ITIF written comments for illumination: <a href="http://www.itif.org/files/20090903_The%20Future_of_the_Internet_FCC.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.itif.org/files/20090903_The%20Future_of_the_Internet_FCC.pdf</a></p>
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