Comments on: Five Nines on the Net is a Pipe Dream http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/ Business, Internet, Technology & Strategy Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:05:28 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Outage Fever: Netflix Streaming Was Down Last Night http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-943883 Outage Fever: Netflix Streaming Was Down Last Night Thu, 14 May 2009 22:28:29 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-943883 [...] — this is a good reminder that these type of hiccups (and six hours is a long hiccup) are bound to happen when relying entirely on the Internet for video [...] [...] — this is a good reminder that these type of hiccups (and six hours is a long hiccup) are bound to happen when relying entirely on the Internet for video [...]

]]> By: Google Slow, Twitterati Hysterical http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-943819 Google Slow, Twitterati Hysterical Thu, 14 May 2009 16:48:53 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-943819 [...] the meantime, feel free to revisit our post about the difficulty of ensuring total reliability on the Internet, and ponder your backup communication strategies. The timing is someone ironic, as it comes one day [...] [...] the meantime, feel free to revisit our post about the difficulty of ensuring total reliability on the Internet, and ponder your backup communication strategies. The timing is someone ironic, as it comes one day [...]

]]> By: How Is Cloud Computing Like Space Travel? http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-931151 How Is Cloud Computing Like Space Travel? Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:02:58 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-931151 [...] glitches and failures that may seem manageable in a corporate setting, have awesome power when they spread across the enormous number of users on the web. So how is cloud computing like space travel? Small problems can equal a monumental [...] [...] glitches and failures that may seem manageable in a corporate setting, have awesome power when they spread across the enormous number of users on the web. So how is cloud computing like space travel? Small problems can equal a monumental [...]

]]> By: When Gmail Fails, Users Adapt http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-928654 When Gmail Fails, Users Adapt Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:56:01 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-928654 [...] Five nines is too expensive for most free, consumer-oriented web services to maintain, and realizing that, we seem to be building out our store of redundant communications. So now, when life offers us power outages, snowstorms and even Gmail failures, we’re able to pick right up and keep blogging, tweeting, texting and posting our thoughts into the ether. GA_googleFillSlot("gigaom_ros_post_footer"); [...] [...] Five nines is too expensive for most free, consumer-oriented web services to maintain, and realizing that, we seem to be building out our store of redundant communications. So now, when life offers us power outages, snowstorms and even Gmail failures, we’re able to pick right up and keep blogging, tweeting, texting and posting our thoughts into the ether. GA_googleFillSlot(”gigaom_ros_post_footer”); [...]

]]> By: Faster Web Pages Makes Users Happy - GigaOM http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-892779 Faster Web Pages Makes Users Happy - GigaOM Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:31:02 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-892779 [...] of YSlow software, which measures web site performance. It’s a nice reminder that there are many links in the chain that create a user’s web experience, and it focuses on what developers and site designers can do to make pages load [...] [...] of YSlow software, which measures web site performance. It’s a nice reminder that there are many links in the chain that create a user’s web experience, and it focuses on what developers and site designers can do to make pages load [...]

]]> By: Mike http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-888301 Mike Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:58:47 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-888301 Quote: "Knowing that, architecting for failure, and more services such as downforeveryoneorjustme.com (I would really love a more memorable name for this site) and helpful 404 pages would be appreciated." Your wish is granted: http://isitfucked.com Enjoy! Quote: “Knowing that, architecting for failure, and more services such as downforeveryoneorjustme.com (I would really love a more memorable name for this site) and helpful 404 pages would be appreciated.”

Your wish is granted: http://isitfucked.com

Enjoy!

]]> By: 99.999 | licensinghandbook.com http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-888165 99.999 | licensinghandbook.com Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:34:54 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-888165 [...] almost a decade.  Gigoam commented recently about the fact that the current movement towards more cloud-based computing is going to require [...] [...] almost a decade.  Gigoam commented recently about the fact that the current movement towards more cloud-based computing is going to require [...]

]]> By: Dave Burstein http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887972 Dave Burstein Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:53:48 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887972 Stacey, Om When I saw your 5 9's headline, I first tried to think of any dsl or fiber networks that were built for that. Even after I saw you wewre discussing the other end, the web sites, I pondered that question. Our Verizon DSL line has come close to that the last year, while my Time Warner cable drops often several times a day for a few seconds and they refuse to fix it. FIOS and the other fiber builds are designed for very good reliability, including no active elements in the field. I'm very aware that broadband networks absolutely have not been engineered for anything close to the 5 9's of the traditional telcos, with single points of failure common in DSL networks. The new fiber nets may be superior, but that's not yet proven. But I did realize at least one Internet service that is extraordinarily reliable. The NY ISP Panix has not allowed my email to fail in over five years, and the founder, Alexis Rosen, told me a while back it hadn't gone down more than a few hours since Panix was founded early in the 1990s as one of the world's first ISPs. Reliability is not impossible in the Internet world. Dave Burstein Stacey, Om

When I saw your 5 9’s headline, I first tried to think of any dsl or fiber networks that were built for that. Even after I saw you wewre discussing the other end, the web sites, I pondered that question. Our Verizon DSL line has come close to that the last year, while my Time Warner cable drops often several times a day for a few seconds and they refuse to fix it. FIOS and the other fiber builds are designed for very good reliability, including no active elements in the field.

I’m very aware that broadband networks absolutely have not been engineered for anything close to the 5 9’s of the traditional telcos, with single points of failure common in DSL networks. The new fiber nets may be superior, but that’s not yet proven.

But I did realize at least one Internet service that is extraordinarily reliable. The NY ISP Panix has not allowed my email to fail in over five years, and the founder, Alexis Rosen, told me a while back it hadn’t gone down more than a few hours since Panix was founded early in the 1990s as one of the world’s first ISPs.

Reliability is not impossible in the Internet world.

Dave Burstein

]]> By: Reflections on Unplanned Downtime | IT's About Uptime - The StackSafe Blog http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887888 Reflections on Unplanned Downtime | IT's About Uptime - The StackSafe Blog Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:16:25 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887888 [...] GigaOm takes the perspective that Five Nines on the Net is a Pipe Dream. [...] [...] GigaOm takes the perspective that Five Nines on the Net is a Pipe Dream. [...]

]]> By: Chris Parente http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887881 Chris Parente Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:34:10 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887881 Interesting post. There are bigger brains than mine in this comment thread, but some thoughts I had while reading: As noted, big difference between five nines for a site, versus five nines for end user I believe five nines equates to five minutes of down time a year -- no, I can't remember the formula for that number. It's quite possible there are some businesses that will never need that level of performance DNS is often not given enough attention from reliability standpoint -- a point no doubt made in David's commentary with Om. Hopefully DNS's visibility will rise along with cloud computing. It's also critical for enterprise VOIP deployments Speaking of DNS security, it will be very interesting to see where ICANN sets the technology bar in their RFPs for the brand new TLDs -- scuttlebutt suggests the standards will be on the low side More informative 404 pages opens the door to redirects for advertising purposes. I'm not saying that's necessarily bad, but adds complexity and can cause security problems (Earthlink), based on how implemented Interesting post. There are bigger brains than mine in this comment thread, but some thoughts I had while reading:

As noted, big difference between five nines for a site, versus five nines for end user

I believe five nines equates to five minutes of down time a year — no, I can’t remember the formula for that number. It’s quite possible there are some businesses that will never need that level of performance

DNS is often not given enough attention from reliability standpoint — a point no doubt made in David’s commentary with Om. Hopefully DNS’s visibility will rise along with cloud computing. It’s also critical for enterprise VOIP deployments

Speaking of DNS security, it will be very interesting to see where ICANN sets the technology bar in their RFPs for the brand new TLDs — scuttlebutt suggests the standards will be on the low side

More informative 404 pages opens the door to redirects for advertising purposes. I’m not saying that’s necessarily bad, but adds complexity and can cause security problems (Earthlink), based on how implemented

]]> By: Edmund Elkin http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887558 Edmund Elkin Tue, 08 Jul 2008 20:13:06 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887558 Is 5 9's necessary? It depends upon the specific service, or the type of service, from that website. For example, if it is a road-traffic condition, then no worries if Site A is down, I just go to Site B, which is especially easy if I use a search engine to initially identify those sites (that keeps the bookmarks under control). On the other hand, if it is where I buy tickets for the big baseball game, or my 401(k) site, then I really want access now, and unavailability is not acceptable. So, it would be useful to have a variable mechanism for ensuring QoS. That would save on the total investment / price, and ensure quality is there when I need it. Also, remember... 5 9's refers to "availability" not reliability. Or as the original article correctly referred to it: "up time." Is 5 9’s necessary? It depends upon the specific service, or the type of service, from that website. For example, if it is a road-traffic condition, then no worries if Site A is down, I just go to Site B, which is especially easy if I use a search engine to initially identify those sites (that keeps the bookmarks under control). On the other hand, if it is where I buy tickets for the big baseball game, or my 401(k) site, then I really want access now, and unavailability is not acceptable.
So, it would be useful to have a variable mechanism for ensuring QoS. That would save on the total investment / price, and ensure quality is there when I need it.
Also, remember… 5 9’s refers to “availability” not reliability. Or as the original article correctly referred to it: “up time.”

]]> By: austinandrew http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887439 austinandrew Tue, 08 Jul 2008 02:47:45 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887439 @ Ross - did you read the article? You write "Go start monitoring Merill Lynch or UBS and see how often their site goes down." The point is that even if these guys were up 100% of the time, the infrastructure from their server to your home won't be. That's why VOIP sucks. Even if the VOIP provider is good, the service is only as good as your cable modem. @ Ross – did you read the article? You write “Go start monitoring Merill Lynch or UBS and see how often their site goes down.” The point is that even if these guys were up 100% of the time, the infrastructure from their server to your home won’t be. That’s why VOIP sucks. Even if the VOIP provider is good, the service is only as good as your cable modem.

]]> By: Thomas http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887426 Thomas Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:46:07 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887426 Five nines is very doable -- getting a VC or dot-commer that runs their business off of crappy boxes stuffed in their dorm rooms to pay for the required technology is a pipe dream. Hire infrastructure vendors that play in the communications world and they'll engineer a 5-9's system no problem. Continue to get your technology from Open Source and Fry's and you'll be lucy to get 3. Five nines is very doable — getting a VC or dot-commer that runs their business off of crappy boxes stuffed in their dorm rooms to pay for the required technology is a pipe dream. Hire infrastructure vendors that play in the communications world and they’ll engineer a 5-9’s system no problem. Continue to get your technology from Open Source and Fry’s and you’ll be lucy to get 3.

]]> By: Ross http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887395 Ross Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:20:01 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887395 Om, I guess we have to agree to disagree. People notice when they can't get to their financials. Lets pick a better site like Etrade or Ameritrade. These companies need uptime and a single bit of downtime can cost them millions. An even better example is ebay and you can check out their track record here: http://uptime.pingdom.com/site/month_summary/site_name/www.ebay.com (so far in 2008) or http://uptime.pingdom.com/site/month_summary/site_name/www.yahoo.com (look at 2007) Just because Twitter goes down often doesn't mean five nines isn't achievable. Om,

I guess we have to agree to disagree. People notice when they can’t get to their financials. Lets pick a better site like Etrade or Ameritrade. These companies need uptime and a single bit of downtime can cost them millions.

An even better example is ebay and you can check out their track record here:
http://uptime.pingdom.com/site/month_summary/site_name/www.ebay.com (so far in 2008)

or

http://uptime.pingdom.com/site/month_summary/site_name/www.yahoo.com (look at 2007)

Just because Twitter goes down often doesn’t mean five nines isn’t achievable.

]]> By: Travis http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887378 Travis Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:56:06 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887378 Even Google rarely maintains five 9's. http://royal.pingdom.com/?p=192 Granted the article is almost a year old but only one country's Google site was at 99.999% And Google has an enormous infrastructure investment and can afford the type of redundancy that is required to maintain that kind of availability. Can it be done? Absolutely. Will most smaller organizations have the resources to do it? Probably not, at least until the cost of a massively redundant infrastructure comes down. Even Google rarely maintains five 9’s. http://royal.pingdom.com/?p=192
Granted the article is almost a year old but only one country’s Google site was at 99.999% And Google has an enormous infrastructure investment and can afford the type of redundancy that is required to maintain that kind of availability. Can it be done? Absolutely. Will most smaller organizations have the resources to do it? Probably not, at least until the cost of a massively redundant infrastructure comes down.

]]> By: Stacey Higginbotham http://gigaom.com/2008/07/06/five-nines-on-the-net-is-a-pipe-dream/#comment-887371 Stacey Higginbotham Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:40:52 +0000 http://gigaom.com/?p=14054#comment-887371 Guys, there may be sites that experience five nines (do we count planned outages?), but the point of the post is that that is hard to do because there are so many moving parts, and when it does go down people notice and news spreads quickly. It's impossible to believe that right now a site will be both up and available to ALL users 99.99 percent of the time. And on the web it only takes a few users having problems to damage the brand. Guys, there may be sites that experience five nines (do we count planned outages?), but the point of the post is that that is hard to do because there are so many moving parts, and when it does go down people notice and news spreads quickly. It’s impossible to believe that right now a site will be both up and available to ALL users 99.99 percent of the time.

And on the web it only takes a few users having problems to damage the brand.

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