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	<title>Comments on: I Don&#039;t Want Source Code; I Want App Tone</title>
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		<title>By: Is App Tone Enough? &#171; thoughts on computing</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Is App Tone Enough? &#171; thoughts on computing]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 03:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Croll has an interesting post where he argues that, for all intents and purposes, source code is irrelevant &#8211; the new [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Croll has an interesting post where he argues that, for all intents and purposes, source code is irrelevant &#8211; the new [...]</p>
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		<title>By: logicmantra</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199109</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[logicmantra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[sometimes I want app ,sometimes source code, sometimes both and most of the time none.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sometimes I want app ,sometimes source code, sometimes both and most of the time none.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Godse</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199108</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay Godse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that Alistair has it right on with the &quot;app-tone&quot; thing. It&#039;s too painful to host your own application these days, compared to using SaaS.

I think that proprietary applications will continue to thrive because operating software is expensive whether it&#039;s open source or proprietary. For many folks, the difference in &quot;free&quot; vs &quot;paid license&quot; makes it not worth switching from proprietary applications to open source applications.

Another thing to consider is that hosting applications and data has gotten very cheap. For example, 3 years ago, our company was paying $1500/month for a single server, software, physical security, network security, and availability at a high-quality data center. If I  were to do it today, I would just use Amazon EC2 to host the application at a starting price of about $70/month, with the same security &amp; reliability. As the application processing and data grows, Amazon&#039;s solution scales up and out very nicely, and the computing costs grow proportionally to traffic, processing, and storage.

However, even though the hosting is cheap, service operations, customer support, software maintenance and evolution etc have not gotten any cheaper. Those costs are starting to drive  the overall costs more these days.

The big issue coming down the pipe is data portability and data security for applications hosted by 3rd parties. Once the big hosting companies convince enterprises that they can host data more securely than the enterprises, SaaS will become more and more dominant. Data portability has always been a big problem, and often represents the last available form of vendor lock-in.

I don&#039;t think that Microsoft needs to buy Yahoo. Microsoft has the skills in operating SaaS applications such as hotmail, search, and XBox Live. They have deep domain expertise in the software that would make great SaaS applications, and they have the trust of enterprises that pay for that software. What Microsoft does not have is an executive culture that enables them to successfully run a profitable P&amp;L unit that provides SaaS. What they should do is hive off a fully owned subsidiary to run Live as a separate brand from Microsoft, and then staff that subsidiary with capable executive managers from the likes of Google, Yahoo, Amazon, or eBay. They could buy up a few small SaaS players such as Zoho, and then integrate them into Live. The nice perceived advantage with Live is that if they ever claim that their software interworks with Microsoft licensed applications and services, people are more likely to believe them because they&#039;re owned by Microsoft. The other big habit they have to break is charging every user a license for every installed piece of software. Live as a separate subsidiary will enable them to use  other revenue models to achieve business success.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that Alistair has it right on with the &#8220;app-tone&#8221; thing. It&#8217;s too painful to host your own application these days, compared to using SaaS.</p>
<p>I think that proprietary applications will continue to thrive because operating software is expensive whether it&#8217;s open source or proprietary. For many folks, the difference in &#8220;free&#8221; vs &#8220;paid license&#8221; makes it not worth switching from proprietary applications to open source applications.</p>
<p>Another thing to consider is that hosting applications and data has gotten very cheap. For example, 3 years ago, our company was paying $1500/month for a single server, software, physical security, network security, and availability at a high-quality data center. If I  were to do it today, I would just use Amazon EC2 to host the application at a starting price of about $70/month, with the same security &amp; reliability. As the application processing and data grows, Amazon&#8217;s solution scales up and out very nicely, and the computing costs grow proportionally to traffic, processing, and storage.</p>
<p>However, even though the hosting is cheap, service operations, customer support, software maintenance and evolution etc have not gotten any cheaper. Those costs are starting to drive  the overall costs more these days.</p>
<p>The big issue coming down the pipe is data portability and data security for applications hosted by 3rd parties. Once the big hosting companies convince enterprises that they can host data more securely than the enterprises, SaaS will become more and more dominant. Data portability has always been a big problem, and often represents the last available form of vendor lock-in.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that Microsoft needs to buy Yahoo. Microsoft has the skills in operating SaaS applications such as hotmail, search, and XBox Live. They have deep domain expertise in the software that would make great SaaS applications, and they have the trust of enterprises that pay for that software. What Microsoft does not have is an executive culture that enables them to successfully run a profitable P&amp;L unit that provides SaaS. What they should do is hive off a fully owned subsidiary to run Live as a separate brand from Microsoft, and then staff that subsidiary with capable executive managers from the likes of Google, Yahoo, Amazon, or eBay. They could buy up a few small SaaS players such as Zoho, and then integrate them into Live. The nice perceived advantage with Live is that if they ever claim that their software interworks with Microsoft licensed applications and services, people are more likely to believe them because they&#8217;re owned by Microsoft. The other big habit they have to break is charging every user a license for every installed piece of software. Live as a separate subsidiary will enable them to use  other revenue models to achieve business success.</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199107</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199107</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Good points but I&#039;d argue that this is a bit simplistic. It&#039;s not either-or but both-and ... both the service &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; the source have value.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If not, why don&#039;t SaaS folks etc. post out their source?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;More &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.appistry.com/blogs/bob/biz/is-app-tone-enough&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points but I&#8217;d argue that this is a bit simplistic. It&#8217;s not either-or but both-and &#8230; both the service <em>and</em> the source have value.</p>
<p>If not, why don&#8217;t SaaS folks etc. post out their source?</p>
<p>More <a href="http://www.appistry.com/blogs/bob/biz/is-app-tone-enough" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Alistair Croll</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199106</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alistair Croll]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;@Ed: I agree only for a narrow slice of the software world where your algorithms are a trade secret. For software like a word processor, or a contact manager, it&#039;s easy to recreate the functionality because the app is a spec. But if the code is the secret -- some magical stock tracker, for example, that anticipates the market&#039;s whims better than others -- then I absolutely agree.
I would argue, however, that most of the software we use most of the time is now so easily copied and imitated, or already available for anyone to see, that it&#039;s not a sustainable competitive advantage. But ordering 10,000 servers at a time, or amortizing application load around the world and across hundreds of customers, is an advantage because it allows the operator to achieve economies of scale.
So if Freeagent has some secret sauce that makes people choose it for reasons other than the service, then absolutely keep it secret. But such applications are fewer and farther between in today&#039;s world, IMHO.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ed: I agree only for a narrow slice of the software world where your algorithms are a trade secret. For software like a word processor, or a contact manager, it&#8217;s easy to recreate the functionality because the app is a spec. But if the code is the secret &#8212; some magical stock tracker, for example, that anticipates the market&#8217;s whims better than others &#8212; then I absolutely agree.<br />
I would argue, however, that most of the software we use most of the time is now so easily copied and imitated, or already available for anyone to see, that it&#8217;s not a sustainable competitive advantage. But ordering 10,000 servers at a time, or amortizing application load around the world and across hundreds of customers, is an advantage because it allows the operator to achieve economies of scale.<br />
So if Freeagent has some secret sauce that makes people choose it for reasons other than the service, then absolutely keep it secret. But such applications are fewer and farther between in today&#8217;s world, IMHO.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Molyneux</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ed Molyneux]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Maybe I&#039;m missing something, but if I gave away the source code for FreeAgent, why wouldn&#039;t any tom/dick/harry hosting company not offer FreeAgent app tone at a fraction of the price I can, given that they don&#039;t have to recoup the significant upfront development investment or support an ongoing development team?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As the cost of actually doing this goes down, surely the source code is exactly the crown jewels that I&#039;ll need to hang onto?&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m missing something, but if I gave away the source code for FreeAgent, why wouldn&#8217;t any tom/dick/harry hosting company not offer FreeAgent app tone at a fraction of the price I can, given that they don&#8217;t have to recoup the significant upfront development investment or support an ongoing development team?</p>
<p>As the cost of actually doing this goes down, surely the source code is exactly the crown jewels that I&#8217;ll need to hang onto?</p>
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		<title>By: It&#8217;s not about the software, it&#8217;s about the service</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199104</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[It&#8217;s not about the software, it&#8217;s about the service]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] Croll just wrote a post over at GigaOM talking about the increasing irrelevance of source code: For a long time, source code was viewed as a software company’s crown jewels, protected by [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Croll just wrote a post over at GigaOM talking about the increasing irrelevance of source code: For a long time, source code was viewed as a software company’s crown jewels, protected by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alistair Croll</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199103</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alistair Croll]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Interesting comments. I think there&#039;s a lot of value in being able to review the source code -- primarily for security and compliance -- and transparency is a good thing. But I agree with @whoopie that data portability, which is a good predictor of just how much one SaaS or PaaS (platform-as-a-service) vendor can hold you ransom, is a big issue.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Maybe we&#039;ll see an &quot;open data&quot; equivalent of open source that commits to making data, metadata, and relations openly retrievable to its owner in a structured, standardized manner. And maybe an open source license can enforce that kind of behavior in apptone operators.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comments. I think there&#8217;s a lot of value in being able to review the source code &#8212; primarily for security and compliance &#8212; and transparency is a good thing. But I agree with @whoopie that data portability, which is a good predictor of just how much one SaaS or PaaS (platform-as-a-service) vendor can hold you ransom, is a big issue.</p>
<p>Maybe we&#8217;ll see an &#8220;open data&#8221; equivalent of open source that commits to making data, metadata, and relations openly retrievable to its owner in a structured, standardized manner. And maybe an open source license can enforce that kind of behavior in apptone operators.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Boycott Novell &#187; Links 18/04/2008: New Linux Kernel, New RedHawk Linux, Yahoo Gets Close to Google</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boycott Novell &#187; Links 18/04/2008: New Linux Kernel, New RedHawk Linux, Yahoo Gets Close to Google]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] I Don’t Want Source Code; I Want App Tone [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I Don’t Want Source Code; I Want App Tone [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Krish</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199101</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Krish]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;I don&#039;t want to spam the comments section but I think I have explained very well with the following four posts (albeit a bit disjointed in the presentation) about the importance of open source in the SaaS world, in spite of arguments made by people like you, Tim O&#039; Reily, etc.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/the-need-of-the-hour-for-web-services-startups-data-portability-and-open-source/&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/opensource-can-make-your-web-app-live-forever/&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/how-to-select-a-hosted-wiki/&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/future-of-open-source-in-the-saas-world/&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to spam the comments section but I think I have explained very well with the following four posts (albeit a bit disjointed in the presentation) about the importance of open source in the SaaS world, in spite of arguments made by people like you, Tim O&#8217; Reily, etc.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/the-need-of-the-hour-for-web-services-startups-data-portability-and-open-source/" rel="nofollow">http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/the-need-of-the-hour-for-web-services-startups-data-portability-and-open-source/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/opensource-can-make-your-web-app-live-forever/" rel="nofollow">http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/opensource-can-make-your-web-app-live-forever/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/how-to-select-a-hosted-wiki/" rel="nofollow">http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/how-to-select-a-hosted-wiki/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/future-of-open-source-in-the-saas-world/" rel="nofollow">http://www.krishworld.com/blog/open-source/future-of-open-source-in-the-saas-world/</a></p>
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		<title>By: whoopie</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199100</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[whoopie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199100</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;care for open source is also care for data portability - in the end the key issue is your freedom. if all you care about is app-tone, in the end you will end up in the same situation as with closed-source software - you will be beholden to a single vendor. but wait, its worse, in the app-tone world, they have your data too. at least in the &quot;windows&quot; model you could conceivably reverse engineer a file format and read the your own files from your own disk. how will this work in the app-tone world? it won&#039;t. you will be completely beholden to your vendor and its url.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>care for open source is also care for data portability &#8211; in the end the key issue is your freedom. if all you care about is app-tone, in the end you will end up in the same situation as with closed-source software &#8211; you will be beholden to a single vendor. but wait, its worse, in the app-tone world, they have your data too. at least in the &#8220;windows&#8221; model you could conceivably reverse engineer a file format and read the your own files from your own disk. how will this work in the app-tone world? it won&#8217;t. you will be completely beholden to your vendor and its url.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Shortreed</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199099</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian Shortreed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;You gotta love sutra-like postings like this because they are so succinct.
Thanks!&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You gotta love sutra-like postings like this because they are so succinct.<br />
Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2008-04-17 &#171; The Adventures of Geekgirl</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199098</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[links for 2008-04-17 &#171; The Adventures of Geekgirl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 04:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199098</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] I Don&#8217;t Want Source Code; I Want App&#160;Tone [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I Don&#8217;t Want Source Code; I Want App&nbsp;Tone [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: making time &#187; From selling IP to selling a service</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199097</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[making time &#187; From selling IP to selling a service]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;[...] This article on GigaOM got me thinking about how little we hear about software piracy these days.  SaaS essentially expires all issues of piracy: vendors are no longer selling pieces of IP on a shiny disc, but sell the proper execution of their software.  On top of that, users don&#8217;t even have physical possession of the IP.  I&#8217;d venture to guess that software piracy looses all relevance within 3 years. [...]&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This article on GigaOM got me thinking about how little we hear about software piracy these days.  SaaS essentially expires all issues of piracy: vendors are no longer selling pieces of IP on a shiny disc, but sell the proper execution of their software.  On top of that, users don&#8217;t even have physical possession of the IP.  I&#8217;d venture to guess that software piracy looses all relevance within 3 years. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Fields</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199096</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Derek Fields]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199096</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;As an individual, I completely agree with this.  I make extensive use of Google&#039;s various applications as well as a few others.  Long ago, I started forwarding all of the mail from my private domain, which functions like a brand name, to an &quot;invisible&quot; gmail account.  I don&#039;t have the time or the inclination to run any of this stuff on my own server.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But I think that you need to distinguish between applications that are heavily user-oriented such as spreadsheets, text, CRM, calendars, email and those applications that operate a business but whose value is largely in the processing algorithms and data and require highly specialized skills to operate.  A banking system, for example, that manages large scale transactions is not a good candidate for SaaS computing.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Maybe this is obvious, but as an employee of a software company that makes this kind of database-intensive, minimal-user system, I keep wondering whether the license-and-install model will eventually move to SaaS.  While we see some small customers moving in the hosted direction, very few are comfortable or willing to operate their company on someone else&#039;s server farm.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an individual, I completely agree with this.  I make extensive use of Google&#8217;s various applications as well as a few others.  Long ago, I started forwarding all of the mail from my private domain, which functions like a brand name, to an &#8220;invisible&#8221; gmail account.  I don&#8217;t have the time or the inclination to run any of this stuff on my own server.</p>
<p>But I think that you need to distinguish between applications that are heavily user-oriented such as spreadsheets, text, CRM, calendars, email and those applications that operate a business but whose value is largely in the processing algorithms and data and require highly specialized skills to operate.  A banking system, for example, that manages large scale transactions is not a good candidate for SaaS computing.</p>
<p>Maybe this is obvious, but as an employee of a software company that makes this kind of database-intensive, minimal-user system, I keep wondering whether the license-and-install model will eventually move to SaaS.  While we see some small customers moving in the hosted direction, very few are comfortable or willing to operate their company on someone else&#8217;s server farm.</p>
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		<title>By: Nima Negahban</title>
		<link>http://gigaom.com/2008/04/16/does-source-code-matter/#comment-199095</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nima Negahban]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gigaom.com/?p=12147#comment-199095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Pretty sure MS has yahoo beat in large scale computing. They&#039;ve been innovating in the space (dryad , etc) , while yahoo has been mainly a consumer of OSS implementations(hadoop) that were based off of Google&#039;s innovations in the years prior.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty sure MS has yahoo beat in large scale computing. They&#8217;ve been innovating in the space (dryad , etc) , while yahoo has been mainly a consumer of OSS implementations(hadoop) that were based off of Google&#8217;s innovations in the years prior.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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